A Podcast Post Mortem with Trudie Avery [Coaching Call]

Joe: 1:08

Hey everybody. We've got another coaching call for you today, but it's a little bit different than the normal. Coaching calls that I've done. On this show before because Trudy Avery, the guest today is shutting down her podcast. So instead of a coaching call on what you can do to improve your podcast, we're doing a little bit of a post-mortem. And Trudy's biggest problem as you'll come to find out. Is actually positioning. She is a brand expert, a branding expert. She goes by the logo lady. But her show was about starting a brand new business. And so what we discuss in this episode is. Passion projects versus projects that have a measurable ROI. For your business, what she could have done differently and what maybe she'll do. In the future. If you like episodes like this, these coaching calls, let me know. You can go to profitable podcast or.fm/feedback. There's a link in the show notes. And if you want to be the subject of one of these coaching calls, you can go to the same place. And let me know. I try to do one per month. They are on a first come first serve basis and, uh, I will help you solve. You are biggest podcasting problem. In about 20 minutes, but without further ado, let's get to the intro. And then the interview. Having a profitable podcast is like having any other profitable business. You need to make money. Sure. But you also need to grow. You need to spend your time wisely. And you need predictability. A couple of sponsors won't make you a profitable podcaster. But having systems to stay consistent. Create steady growth and generate predictable income will. That's what you'll get with this show. Hi, I'm your host, Joe Casabona and my podcasts have been profitable from day one. I'll share everything i know with you here on the profitable podcaster All right. I am here with Trudy Avery. Uh, Trudy, thanks for being on the show. I appreciate you coming on.

Trudie: 3:38

Pleasure to be here. Thanks for asking.

Joe: 3:41

Um, now you, as we record this, you, uh, released an episode of your podcast. Basically announcing that, uh, you will no longer be doing it, but it's called Why My Podcast Failed. So I I I just wanna start off by saying I think that, um, uh, you did a, a great job kind of breaking down. What worked and what didn't work for you, uh, kind of these, these podcast lessons. Um, but I, I do want to dig into some of that, uh, today. And so, um, first of all, um, the, your podcast was called the Brand New Business Podcast, so it's still gonna be up for a little bit, I assume, right? It's not, or are you like taking it down immediately?

Trudie: 4:25

Okay, I'm gonna leave it, see what happens. If anybody can glean anything from it, it'd be great.

Joe: 4:31

Awesome. Um, that's great. And, uh, full disclosure, I was on the podcast. I, I enjoyed our interview. Um, but uh, I think I was, I might have been a little late sharing it cuz I was in Disney World of the week it came out. Um, but, uh, that's one of, I mean, that's one of the things that you mentioned, but let's, let's start off, uh, this call by, I'll ask you what you felt your biggest, um, your biggest struggle or your biggest problem with the podcast was. Yeah.

Trudie: 5:01

I mean, and that is a, a multifaceted answer really, but mm-hmm. I think my greatest learning is I decided from the first instance, I'm gonna do a podcast because I'm really passionate about something. And the thing for me was, uh, my clients really. My, my design clients, they're new businesses that they come into business and they're really passionate about what they do, and sometimes they have these amazing backs, stories, and amazing experiences, and pretty much all of them have got a tale to tell and I thought, There's people who come along and say to me, oh, I wish I could start a business. And for me, I'll, I was like, well, you can, but everybody puts blocks in the way. I can't because of the mortgage. I can't because of the kids. I can't because of I'm too highly paid already. I, I, I dunno what I do, you know, listen, I mean, and I thought I can help these people, and I, I really wanted to help. And I thought, and it does link back to me as a branding expert, it was slightly tenuous, but you know it, this is who I am, this is what I do. But in the end, I think it was a case of it wasn't a strong enough link to me as a branding expert. It didn't make people listen to the podcast and go, I really wanted to work with her. She needs to do my branding. So in terms of lead generation, which. A big part of why I wanted to do it as well. It just didn't happen. Didn't happen. Mm-hmm. So, you know, I was doing this almost altruistic thing, which was lovely and I really enjoyed doing it and I loved the learning curve and everything was great, but I'm just one person in my business and to spend 10 hours a month editing for podcasts, I just, yeah, I can't, I can't sustain that

Joe: 6:54

really. Yeah, that's tough, right? Because if you're not getting your return on your investment and you charge, you know, even a hundred dollars an hour, um, then, uh, you know, that's a thousand bucks a month that you're spending in your own time to edit a podcast. And if it's like a, if it's something you're really passionate about and you're willing to spend like, uh, $12,000 a year on it, On top of the actual costs, then, then fine. But I think a lot of people, right, especially listeners of this show, the profitable podcaster. Yeah, they want. A way they want to have a show that makes the money. And so I think you're, um, to use the British term, I think bang on. Right. I'm, I think I'm using that right by saying, um, it wasn't a strong enough link to, uh, to your, um, your own brand and your own expertise. Right. Um, and this is something a lot of po I think a lot of people who start a podcast. As a passion project. This is a, this is something a lot of, um, a problem a lot of people have, right? And so like, oh, I'm really into Lego, so I'm gonna start a, a show, uh, about Lego, or, I'm really into Disney, so I'm gonna start a show about Disney. But, um, that's fine if it's your hobby, but if you, if you want this to be a vehicle for your. Um, and you wanted to generate leads, then it, it should be linked to you and your expertise. So I think if we take the same concept, I think what you probably could have done was highlight more of your client stories, right? Cuz you said like your clients have a lot of great stories about how they started the business. Um, hi, really like, make it part, I would say like, make it part of what you offer your clients say. Not only am I going to do the branding for you, but we're also gonna record a podcast interview after the branding is done about what I did and how I did it. And you'll tell your story and how I integrated that story, right? That like really helps tell the story of, um, That like really helps tell the story for your client and also helps the people that you, you want to help, right? I couldn't start a business for whatever, right? Like I sp I, I know specifically when I was on your show, you asked me, um, and I told the story about how like, I started a business with a three month old at home. Like I left my full-time job. My wife was still on maternity leave. And so like, I decided, all right, well I'm gonna obliterate all of our income and bet on this business. Um, And like it worked out. You know, so far so good. We have got three kids now, and I'm still self-employed. Um, but I think that that might have been a really good angle. Yeah. Or conversely, right. Start the mini podcast where you give people branding tips. Um, and I think, you know, I think that there's a lot of people doing that. You'd have to find your. Spin on it. Um, but this all comes back to the mission statement, right? And I, I know you've seen this, this content of mine, um, but for those who haven't, right? Your mission statement, uh, basically forces you to answer three questions. Who. Am I doing this for? What problem am I solving and how am I solving that problem? And so it's, my podcast helps blank solve blank by blank. Um, my podcast helps audience solve problem by goal of the podcast. Um, and that really helps you align it with your business and then helps you determine, oh, is this gonna help me generate leads? And again, I, I'll say I have, I have the same problem with how I built it, right? My biggest show, um, is me interviewing other developers, or it was developers. Now it's creators. It doesn't do a whole lot for me to establish my authority, and I'm changing that. But that's part of the reason I started this show, is so that I can establish my authority, authority in the podcast space. So, I think you were really on the right track, and I think like with a couple of tweaks, uh, to the content and, and the mission and the goal, right? You could, uh, you know, it, it could have been, it, it possibly could have been worthwhile. I, I won't say it definitely would've been. I think there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of alignment there and, and depending on if your clients like didn't want their story told or. Um, I think that,

Trudie: 11:25

yeah, it's getting people to listen to it, so why would people be interested in listening to my clients? One bit of feedback that I had, which I thought was really useful from the one my podcasts failed episode was that. This guy who, who is a client of mine, he said, you know, I really enjoyed your episodes. I then listened to them because I, I love you. But he said, I had no clue who these people were. You know, they were nobody to me. So from the, from the GetGo, I'm not, ma I'm not interested in them particularly. And I thought, oh, that's

Joe: 11:59

interesting. Yeah. You know, that's, that's really interesting cuz I will, I'll generally tell people. um, the kind of flip side of that, which is like a famous guest doesn't mean more downloads. Mm-hmm. like, one of my worst performing episodes was Peter Hollands. He's a, if you don't know who he is, he's a big YouTuber. He does acapella stuff. He's extremely talented. Oh yeah, he's, he was great. Uh uh, he. Yeah. Um, but no one listened to that episode because they didn't find it relatable. They weren't doing YouTube stuff. Um, it was also at the time, right. I was still focused on developers. Sorry. That's, that's exactly right. Um, and so the thing that when you're getting pe when you're trying to figure out how to get people to listen, um, it's very much, you gotta look, you gotta think about it as like, what's in it for me? What's in it for them? Um, and so if you're talking. Again, if, um, if you're trying to align this with your brand and your services and how you can help them, I think telling the client stories could be that, right? Where it's like, Hey, you know, basically your thesis statement is everybody is bad at doing their own branding, right? Which I think is probably not a far-fetched statement. Um, I've rebranded this podcast like three times. Um, my first online course website was called WP in one month, and it like wasn't just WordPress and it wasn't just four week courses, so like, there was no good reason for that name. I just bought the domain and used it. Mm-hmm. Um, and so if that's your thesis statement, right, every, you are bad at doing your own branding. This podcast will help you be better at doing your own branding. Here's how, and then you could talk about, hey, uh, Joe came in and Joe is historically bad at naming things. And so the first thing we did was sit down and look at his ideal client and figure out what words resonated with them, what, however you named stuff, um, what words resonated with them. And then we came up with a brand name that told people immediately how Joe could help them. and then people are like, oh yeah, research and brand names, but like, I'm still in my own head. Maybe I'll reach out to Trudy. Right? Um, and so part of it is like, oh, I'm also bad at naming things. I'm going to, I'm going to use this, right? Um, and so if you make it much less focused on what the guest did and who the guest is, and more focused on this guest's story, helps you figure out your own problem. I think that will get more people to listen. That would get more people to listen. Yeah, I mean it,

Trudie: 14:53

what I tried to do every week was to, to have a, a reason to break down a reason why people don't go into business for themselves. As you said, yours was very much based on the fact that you had a three month old baby. You were the sole earner in your household, and yet it didn't stop you. So for me, that was breaking down people's reasoning to say, I can't. Going to business for myself because I have a family to feed. So I, I did try to focus on, on like, on those things every week. So, you know, how long does it take to Yeah. Decide to go into business was another one, or how do you even decide what business to start was another one. So I did kind of theme it every week. Yeah. It just wasn't, yeah.

Joe: 15:38

I dunno. Strong enough. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's good if your main offering was helping people start businesses, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think like your show would be the perfect format for like a business launch coach or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Um, cuz then, cuz then like you, you tack on your own stuff at the end or at the beginning, right? Like, oh, I talked to Joe and he, this is what he was nervous about. If you are nervous about this, this is what I would tell you. Right. Um, whereas like the branding stuff, again, that falls much more in line and again, like. I make this everybody, people who start podcasts, people who start a lot of things make this mistake constantly, right? Um, they have a passion, they want a, an outlet for it, and then they start it and they're like, this is taking time away from like the main thing that makes me money. Yeah. And the big benefit for you is that you realized it sooner rather than later. Right? Because I think a lot of people fall into the fallacy of like the sunk. Well, I've already put this much time in it. Maybe it'll grow. Right? Um, and so, um, getting back to the lead, Jen, right? I guess I'm like inventing a new podcast for you here, right? Like here, like Monday morning quarterbacking. Um, and so if you're telling these stories right about, um, how you help people do better branding, uh, you're a lead gen. The call to action could be, Hey, I hear the same five mistakes all the time with my clients. If you wanna get those five mistakes and what to do to fix them, here's this free resource I have for you. Go over here, join my mailing list, blah, blah, blah. Right? Um, that's the thing I would recommend. Now it's still. This is, and I think this is another mistake that people make. I made the mistake for a long time too. Um, b basically everything I do is just like tell people the mistakes I made and how to avoid them. Um, maybe that's all coaching, maybe I'm just like realizing that right now. But anyway, um, it's that your podcast is not necessarily a way to get more, like it's not a growth. Lever, it's a trust lever, right? And so you get people into your funnel through social media or paid campaigns or webinars or whatever, and then you get them listening to your podcast and that's how they grow to trust you more. Um, and so the way to do that now I've seen, there's a couple people I follow on LinkedIn now who are like, like to be contrarian, uh, and they'll say, this doesn't work. Empirically for me it has worked. Um, but like podcast swaps, um, is a good way to get in front of other similar audiences and get more people listening to your podcast. And so, um, my friend Jeremy Ends, uh, is a really good resource for like, marketing your podcast, but I think that's probably another mistake a lot of people make. Um, I'm gonna start a podcast. It's gonna be similar to starting a YouTube channel where like that one episode will take off and then people will discover me. Discovery is really hard in the podcasting, uh, realm as we, as we record this today, right? Maybe six months from now when YouTube is doing more podcast stuff, um, it'll be better. But, um, the, the podcast is the way to, uh, nurture. The relationship that you already have with somebody who's, who's discovered you somewhere else. I think it's, um, and so I think that's another, yeah,

Trudie: 19:23

I think it's a mistake to believe that opening a podcast is going to get you this instant fame or following or anything instantly is definitely a thing. Something that's a grower, you have to build and build them through consistency and, you know, just giving and giving and giving that it will grow in. Yeah, I mean my, our mind grew from like, I think the first episode had 20 lessons and then through to now when they. It's still not massive, but you know, it's getting 50 listened. So yeah, no, there's, there was that growth over the 18 episodes, but yeah, I'd have to go for about a hundred years to get a thousand listened, so, yeah.

Joe: 20:10

Yeah, absolutely. And I'll tell you like, it's, um, it's tough. I mean, yes, my main show, how I built it pulls in, you know, between like three and 5,000 downloads per episode over the first 30 days. Um, around 75,000 downloads total per month. Um, this show has, I started publishing it in earnest, uh, last June, so, you know, about three quarters of a year as we record this. And it just recently crossed the 3000 downloads mark. Um, and I'm, I'm pretty excited about that because it's a new niche for me. I'm build, I'm using it to build authority. um, the most popular episode, it has 134 downloads. Um, so I need to like, take my own advice, right? For podcast growth. And that's, I mean, that's one of my goals for this, for I guess like quarter two right now that I have a strong set of episodes and resources, um, I wanna start sharing that out and, and doing more podcast swaps with people. Um, but yeah, the growth part is, is tough. I will say of those hundred or so downloads that each episode gets, um, each week, I do get a few people, a few new people onto the mailing list. So, um, You know, I think the consistent call to action, uh, is, is helpful. And again, people who are listening and, and, um, every week or have at least subscribed and they hear that call to action like they trust you a little bit more. So, um, it definitely, it's a slow build. It's been a slow build for me, and I, I know the levers I need to pull to, to grow it. Um, but, uh, you know, I think like finding, finding the right mission and the right niche. Um, and then working with other podcasters are probably the three things to really help grow. Right. Um, and so, uh, we're, we're coming up on time here, but I hope this was, I mean, again, it was a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking for you, but, uh, I hope it was helpful perspective-wise. I hope it was helpful for the listeners who, who tuned in. Um, do you have any, any closing thoughts as, as we wrap up here? I think.

Trudie: 22:28

Will I do it again? Will I create another podcast? I think so, probably. But like you say, I just need to, I need to think more, be more strategic in what I'm putting out there, why and what I expect to return and how I intend to do that. I need to be so much more focused on the outcome that I want so that I don't turn around and say it was a failure again. So yeah, I think never say never. I need to think. Yeah,

Joe: 23:00

I like that. Well, I, I hope to, I hope to hear you back in on the podcast waves soon, cuz I didn't, I did enjoy your show. I would tune in, I subscribed, I would listen to most episodes and, um, yeah, of course. I mean it was, uh, first of all, anytime somebody has me on, on a guest, I. Give them the courtesy of subscribing to their show, but then, like, you know, you, these are interesting stories you're telling. I've, I've been in business since high school, and so I was very interested in that. Um, I will, I'll, I will say this though, right? Like being intentional about your goals is really important. A lot of people will say like, don't, don't even think about trying to make money until after you've launched your podcast. I think that's the wrong approach. Think about, think about how you're going to make money with your podcast when you're starting it. don't worry about making money from episode one. Like don't say, oh, I haven't made money yet after five episodes. This is a failure. But if you have that achievable goal, then it's easier to march towards. Right? I'm working with like a health coach now, um, and, and she says, yeah, you wanna lose 50 pounds or a hundred pounds or whatever. I wanna lose 50 pounds. Um, don't focus on the 50 pounds. We're gonna celebrate every time you lose two pounds. can you lose two pounds this week? I go, yeah. Uh, like, I could easily lose two pounds this week, right? Um, and so that one small, achievable goal is the thing that, that makes me keep going, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so I think that's also something to think about. Don't, don't think about, oh, I need a thousand downloads, or I need to get a hundred people on my mailing list. Think, hey, uh, if 15 people listen to this episode, that's 15 more people than I would've reached with this message. And so that's, that's the goal. Next week it'll be 20, right? The week after, that'll be 25, whatever. So, um, I think that's, that's an approach to, to take as well. So, um, Trudy, thanks for coming on the show and, uh, and being open with, uh, your podcast, uh, experience. I appreciate you sharing with us. If people wanna learn more about you, where can they find.

Trudie: 25:10

So my website is the is logo lady.com. There you'll find out all about my, my Lo, my design business essentially. So my branding business where I design logos and websites and everything. But yeah. Logo lady.com or LinkedIn. Yep. Trudy Avery. At LinkedIn.

Joe: 25:33

Or LinkedIn? Yeah, I'm there every day. Jeremy? Yes. Which I will link. Yeah, and I was saying before we recorded like your, uh, your LinkedIn posts, uh, get tons of engagement. I'm not gonna say I'm jealous cuz jealousy is a bad color, but, uh, I aspire to get the same engagement on, on my LinkedIn post that you get. So, um, but yeah, yeah, you show up there, you post really great stuff. It's awesome. Um, I'm sensing, you know, I think either a YouTube channel or a podcast, maybe both, where you just roast people's logos, right? Logo, lady roasts, a logo People love that. Maybe that's your next idea. I could never be that mean,

Trudie: 26:13

I could never be that mean

Joe: 26:14

Well, uh, we can work on that. I'm, I can be that mean cuz I'm from New York, so, uh, we can work on that offline. Trudy, thanks so much for joining us today. I really appreciate it. Thanks Joe. I want to thank Trudy once again for coming onto the show for being so open and honest with us about her struggles. Uh, and hopefully saving you some time. And some strife now, truth be told if Trudy. Uh, had gone through the, uh, podcast liftoff, uh, program. Uh, she could have saved some time here, right? Because one of the first things we do is talking about defining your mission statement and understanding that measurable ROI in the beginning, even if you're not making money at first, we also cover podcast swaps, which is a great way to grow your show. So if you are interested, In any, or all of that, you can go to podcast, liftoff.com/playbook to join the program. It's an open enrollment right now. So definitely. Check it out. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. If you want to hear Trudy's episode where she talks about shutting down her podcast, I will link that in the show notes, which you can find. over@profitablepodcastor.fm slash three 11. that's profitable podcaster.fm/ 3 1 1. thanks so much for listening and until next time i can't wait to see what you make